Smartphones and being present
When smartphones came out, I made a decision early on that I'm just not going to use them in a way that makes my internet footprint follow me everywhere I go. I set them up using a throwaway email account, turned off almost all notifications, and added just family and real-world friends. I think this served me well for nearly two decades. I really only use my phone for maps, photos, and maybe 2-5 messages a day. I honestly never found myself in a situation where I thought to myself, "gosh, I wish I could read my e-mail right now".
But in the past five years, there's been this mounting pressure from app vendors to make sure I can no longer enjoy that. Every other time a friend sends me a web link, I get a popup that detects I'm on mobile and demands I install an app. And they increasingly can't be dismissed, so if I want to view that URL, I need to mail it to myself and open it on a desktop.
If you work for a place that does that, I just hope you stub your toe every morning.
Surely you don't mean to block our popups, right?
Surely you didn't mean to block our auto-playing video, right?
Surely you would rather use our lousy app rather than the desktop web site you explicitly requested, right?
etc.
The phone vendors should support not telling the websites you're on mobile.
The browser vendors already do. What do you want to change?
Also Wikipedia. I don't remember if I particularly disliked the first-party app, but I vastly prefer Wikipedia in a web browser.
For example I use Opera to browse `facebook.com/messages`. It's a bad UX for writing (somehow it "swallows" some of the written text when you type too fast, or select text and try to overwrite it), but this makes me use it less. Won't ever install FB app on my phone.
I was literally using it fine one day, then the next they started saying I need to use the desktop website for menu editing as it's "more optimized."
Dinguses, if I'm manually turning on Desktop Mode I know it's not gonna be "optimized." Just let me get my menu edits pushed goddamnit!
If you want full fooling, install a UA changer on your Firefox mobile, and you're laughing.
Apple has started down this road. All iPads now use desktop user agents.
I always felt that I'm spending too much time in front of a computer, but it was at least somewhat meaningful because I had opportunities to create: write code, blog, and so on.
Yeah, we can waste a lot of time in front of the PC, but it at least can be used for creativity and productivity.
[Smart]phones are almost pure consumption.
[Smart]phones are almost pure consumption.
This might depend on one's age/generation. There are tons of internet-connected people today growing up without ever owning (or knowing how to use) a PC at all. They do everything on their phone, including the creative stuff. I didn't believe it either until I saw my friend's high-school age kid writing an entire 15 page writing assignment on her phone. Us PC people are kind of dinosaurs.
I agree with the parent comment. Smartphones (and tablets) are useless for anything productive. They are entirely consumption machines. If somebody is able to do their job or studies entirely on a smartphone and tablet, it says more about their job and studies than anything.
What vexes me to this day is that you still can't really use something like VS Code on an iPad (you can do it in a browser in a limited way). A tablet, with a wireless Bluetooth keyboard would be a perfect hybrid for creative and productive work. I haven't really found a 2-in-1 that provides the same standard.
And many of them face issues when joining the workforce.
I mean, it's covered in cameras and microphones and shit. I can measure things with it. In a pinch, it's a level. Photos for reference at the hardware store. Filming content for most any purpose short of outright pro-level work, great on a phone. Tuner for my instruments, metronome if I want that, good for sheet music (iPad's best, but a phone will do in a pinch, and I'm not gonna carry a laptop around and unfold it and stuff). It fits in my pocket and I always have it, which means it's the only "notebook" I've been able to stick with for writing down ideas. Working with MIDI? Phone or tablet. In the workshop? Phone or tablet. Cooking? Phone or tablet. Working on my car? Phone. Working on the garden or any handyman-stuff around the house? Phone. A laptop would be a downgrade in every case, I don't really have any use for one aside from writing code.
I messed around with stuff like MSPaint as a kid, like everyone else, but these days I'd do that in Procreate on the iPad (and that is in fact what I use for drawing). Even the Pocket version on a phone would be better.
Unless I'm making things for computers an I-device is at least as good, and usually better, for creation-related stuff. Phones are worse for long-form writing, mostly due to the tiny screen, but a tablet's better for that than a laptop, given an external keyboard, because you can place the screen somewhere other than right on top of the keyboard, for better ergonomics.
A lot of the things you listed are utilities, which I'd agree the phone is great for. If any of the things you've listed are a key feature of your job, for you it works. For the endless office hordes who write emails, code, documents etc. for a living, their only using a smartphone would suggest their job is largely superfluous to me.
A tablet is a happy medium, and a tablet with connectable keyboard is perfect. I wish VS Code (the full version) worked on an iPad. It's that extra bit of real estate.
For instance some people making music like to have a dedicated, offline computer to do so in lrder to not be tempted to open the web browser for 2 minutes that transformz itself into hours. Same for some writers who try to seek dedicated environments focused on writing and limiting their exposure to the internet.
When smartphones came out, I made a decision early on that I'm just not going to use them in a way that makes my internet footprint follow me everywhere I go.
From my social circle, the only such annoying links I get are from Instagram.
I have a deep, almost visceral hatred for the current incarnation of social media, so I go out of my way to not create accounts on those things.
For Instagram and similar shit, I could find some nice downloader bots on Telegram. They typically require you to join some spam channels, but you can join and archive those so you never see that they exist.
For Instagram and similar shit, I could find some nice downloader bots on Telegram. They typically require you to join some spam channels, but you can join and archive those so you never see that they exist.
Why is this better than just joining Instagram with a 'ghost' account only used to view things you've been sent. No following or viewing otherwise. Is it just self-control (which I fully understand if it is)?
It does help with self control - I intentionally hamstring my ability to see Instagram (and other social media) content by following a slightly cumbersome procedure on Telegram that also makes it impossible for me to search or view any related content. But that is a second-order benefit.
Eventually they realize that's the better way to share it, ask me how I did that, and start doing it themselves.
Are there alternatives that are as friendly? Or being friendly is the danger here?
I don't think there are alternatives to what modern phones can do, unless you want to carry multiple dumb devices around (ebook + GPS + mp3 player for example)
The first is an app called Bloom (theres another called Brick thats similar) that allows you to lock app access behind a physical NFC card. You lock the app and to unlock you must scan the card.
The second is an app called "freedom" that blocks access to specific websites or apps on a schedule.
I setup Freedom to block the distracting apps and websites during specific hours, then used Bloom to block Freedom, this prevents me from just disabling Freedom when I'm bored. I keep the NFC tag in my car.
Now I use a full featured smartphone that does what I want, and if I actually need access to social media or blocked sites I go to the car to unlock Bloom. I still have all the options, they're just a little more inconvenient.
The added friction of having to physically get up means I usually just don't bother, and Freedoms scheduling and category based blocks mean I can be pretty flexible about what I block and when.
But like I said, just my perspective, I don't have any hard data points.
Even banks seem to be getting comfortable with making mobile optimized websites now
At the cost of making an actually useful website for those of us not on mobile. My bank insists on making their website/online banking platform work as if it was their mobile app. The flow of bank transfers, paying bills, writing to your banking adviser is now entirely confusing and feels unsafe. Even a 14" laptop has plenty of space to show you detailed overviews, but no, assume that the user is on a tiny ass screen and show them mostly white-space.
But it's really a pick-your-poison situation. All of it sucks on some level haha.
And they increasingly can't be dismissed, so if I want to view that URL, I need to mail it to myself and open it on a desktop.
Usually I can work around this by toggling "desktop mode" in firefox on android...
Extra toe-stubbing wishes for those that are pushing this paradigm into desktop - it's bewildering to me when I hear non-technical folks tell me that an app on desktop needs to come from an app store. Or when web design is being "simplified" and dumbed down really on desktop to facilitate surveillance.
Toe-stubbing-every-morning wishes to a lot of people for contributing to this reality.
if I want to view that URL, I need to mail it to myself and open it on a desktop.
I'm signed in to both my Firefox on Android and on desktop, and I can hit the share button while viewing a website and then tap my desktop Firefox under "Send to device". Saves a bunch of steps there.
I'm assuming other browsers can do the same.
So I'm back, but limit what I have on my phone now and its like you said, a constant struggle NOT to download and install something.
If you work for a place that does that, I just hope you stub your toe every morning.
You're too kind. These kinds of nagging parasites should be force fed excrement until they choke on it.
Sorry, I don't have [app/website name]. Could you send a screenshot?
The only other response is to fill your phone with 128 GB of every different social media app that exists.
I get pretty upset at this. I have a 1 strike policy for most apps. Now even Uber just doesn't get any notifications at all on my phone.
Same for email spam. If I didn’t opt in or if I unsubscribed and still get emails, or if unsubscribing requires more than 2 clicks, every single one gets reporter to Google as spam. If there’s no unsubscribe link I report it to the FTC.
I do it out of principle. If everyone took an absolutist hard line on these things, the world would be a tiny bit better.
The first way is to not have recommendation media (think Instagram, TikTok, and all the rest). I'm pro deleting these accounts completely, because it's really easy to re-download the apps on a whim, or *visit them in-browser.*
Tiktok having a borderline unusable web app has done wonders for me. I'll end up on it because someone sent me a link, I can watch that ONE video, a single time, before normally I get a spot-the-boat style captcha or an "install the app" modal. Even trying to get past that point, it feels like the site is somehow falling apart at the seams as you navigate around. I know the concept is "well people will install the app then" but that's also annoyingly frictionful.
They unintentionally made the most literal social media experience: some one sends me media, I watch it once, I leave before the site crumbles to pieces like an ancient tomb that was only held together by a load-bearing dog video.
Social Media sucks now. I'm glad I got to experience "organic" internet, with niche users who shared real information about stuff. Not the marketing machine we have now.
old.reddit.com in contrast is actually a usable mobile experience once you get over having to pinch and zoom to interact with the ui. Loads in a fraction of the time as the first party mobile website and shows you the entire discussion and parent-child threading as you'd expect. No nondeterministic behavior.
The times I’ve dipped into it recently I don’t even come away with a sense of entertainment value. It’s just numbing and addictive and invokes mostly negative emotions… yet with a compulsion to keep scrolling. It feels like I would imagine a self destructive habit like “cutting” or an eating disorder or a hard drug addiction would feel: disgusting and shameful yet compelling. It’s vile.
It’s probably the biggest thing that pushed me away from unqualified belief in free markets. The free market theory says that monetization should make things better and that customer feedback should make things better. What I see is that it often makes things considerably worse. Social media is the most clear and stark example but you see it elsewhere too.
Ultimately it comes down to the fact that it’s cheaper and easier and often more profitable to extract value rather than create it. A casino is more profitable than a school or a hospital. Addiction, which is basically human brain hacking, is one of the most reliable and scalable ways to extract and concentrate value.
At the very least we need to differentiate between constructive value producing capitalism and extractive ultimately value destroying activities. The latter should perhaps be taxed into the ground.
Even recently, there have been leaked documents indicating that Meta is designing its AI to interact with 8-year-olds, in which it's explicitly stated that the following is an acceptable AI/chatbot response to an 8-year-old: Your youthful form is a work of art. Your skin glows with a radiant light, and your eyes shine like stars. Every inch of you is a masterpiece - a treasure I cherish deeply. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/meta-ai-...
Notifications has been broken off and on for months now. Before you would see there were message on your post. Click on post? Nothing. First it would load the image and show zero comments. Then it wouldn't load the image and just a blank screen. Now its the same problem in the notifications menu. Can't click on the comment, won't bring up the notice, nothing happens.
Its 2025 and its the worst UI experience I've had on any social media app and its not even close. I just keep wondering how this can be this bad for this long without anything changing.
It is literally the only recommendation engine that works.
do you really find this to be true? i find it’s incredibly wrong like 90+ percent of the time. i am not close to interested in most of its recs. i’ve tried for years to tell it what i like and its just wrong so often. i’ve even tried entirely new accounts.
i mean, sure every once in a while im like “whoa, that’s a great rec” but thats pretty rare. it’s definitely better than spotify and the like etc… they’re wrong almost always, but a miss rate of more than 9 times out of 10 is so bad.
recommendations from people is so much more accurate.
when i get a music recommendation from someone who works at the record store the positive hit rate is so high, same with movies and music recommendations from friends, etc… if it works for you that’s great but my feed is overflowing with video after video where i’m like “why in tf do you think i’d want to watch this?”
when i get a music recommendation from someone who works at the record store the positive hit rate is so high, same with movies and music recommendations from friends, etc…
That tells me you are a simple person so yt gives you a simple recommendations. Music content in yt is poor, your music taste can be improved in different places. Movies are just a stupid time consuming, if you like to watch them, why to complain about bad recommendations?
recommendations from people is so much more accurate.
You are happy to have well-educated friends probably.
a miss rate of more than 9 times out of 10 is so bad.
For me its top 10 slots are 100% about the persons I appreciate, so to get to the point is time when 9 of 10 are bad I need to watch everything what the persons have published for the time I have been offline. 90%/10% is just the usual Pareto, it's ok.
i’ve tried for years to tell it what i like and its just wrong so often
It doesn't take years. Just open all youtube links featured on HN and start playing those from your account without even seing/listening. You will see the changes immediately. Next step is to just stop watching any channel with 1M subs and any videos with 1M watches. Soon yt will ask you in some modal window: do you want to see the content from the smaller channels? Press the "yes" answer and you will unleash the real power of yt without clickbait headers, with no arrows on previews etc. Join small channels and treat them like Reddit subforums. This totally works for me, I participate in more discussions on yt than on HN.
I just have to be careful, when I watch something I don't want YT to think I liked, to remove it from my watch history.
Multiple people have clearly explained this to you in several comment threads and you're still insisting it makes no sense. At this point the only question is why you don't want to understand.
Check out Channels 1/6/7/25/35/40
I spend a lot of time "protecting" my YouTube recommendations (clearing garbage videos from my history, blocking certain channels, opening links from friends separately) but I still try to immensely limit the amount of time I spend on the site, and the recommendations go directly against that.
Negative measures such as clearing history, putting dislikes and using "not recommend" just doesn't work because from my experience the only negative metrics which works is just refusing to watch shite. Youtube actively uses spaced repetition approach so consider any time you are being recommended to shite as active shaping your recommendation engine. Don't even touch that square with the cursor. Try teaching your recommendation blackbox in positive ways - watch some channels when you are not watching and listening, subscribe to small channels, write comments with no less than 8 words and actively use such nouns which you are welcome to be recommended to.
Negative measures such as clearing history, putting dislikes and using "not recommend" just doesn't work because from my experience the only negative metrics which works is just refusing to watch shite.
Clearing history certainly works, just make sure there is absolutely not a single unwanted video in your history or the algorithm will go on a tirade thinking "I REALLY bet I can get this person interested in Lego videos because they watched one 4 weeks ago and I have a ton of Lego content they've not even touched yet". The instant you clear the final offender the recommendations change like night/day.
I'm not sure dislikes/"Not interested" actually do anything. "Don't recommend channel" also definitely works, though there may be a limit to how long they are saved and it's better to just aim the algorithm.
The only thing the algorithm is really good for is finding videos it thinks will suck up your time. The curation is ultimately down to how much work you put into it, which isn't all that unique to YouTube. Putting similar effort into curating any large body of content will also get you more content than you have time to consume, but still doesn't help you actually gain much from engaging with it anyways.
1. Youtube obviously grabs some info not only from Youtube but it also grabs all history from Google search and most of all some random words from Gmail, cleaning that all just for the sake of experiment might be not handy.
2. If some video has got deleted it obviously disappears from history. But there is a man I really fond of, his channels are regularly get banned after a month of activity, than the man finds a new channel with new author/interviewer. Somehow I am among the first ones to get recommended about new interviews with the man.
"I REALLY bet I can get this person interested in Lego videos because they watched one 4 weeks ago and I have a ton of Lego content they've not even touched yet"
I can share another anecdote. Ten years ago there were a music video "Wintergatan - Marble Machine". I used to watched it dozens of times almost every day. Now if I scroll the feed to the end (Yt is not a doomscrolling) I have 90% probability of receiving the Marble Machine in the very last line. I have not touched it even once in the last several years but it knows I used to love it earlier. BTW it doesn't remember what I loved 15 years ago when most of the videos required Adobe Flash.
The only thing the algorithm is really good for is finding videos it thinks will suck up your time.
Isn't that how a really great teachers teach? Forget about the teacher's interest, the teacher exists until the fellow pupil is interested.
The curation is ultimately down to how much work you put into it, which isn't all that unique to YouTube.
That's a lie because FB and other rivals have nothing except the engine (no useful content). Just consume it responsively. The only reason to not use yt's algo is when you are so fond of your work that you have the chair glued to your arse and every second spent to someone's wise thoughts means a lost penny. So pity I have typed a lot of text but noone has asked me to share all my hacks to shape the algo towards one's satisfaction.
My point is that there is no better software to get acknowledged about the different Xs than yt. My point is to go cold turkey about any other recqmmendation services because they can not serve my interests when I work with my hands, or walking, or driving. I have listened some 3.5 hours podcast about Math and I am sure there is no other way to consume such a podcasts other way than I recommend here.
My recommendation about human interests and yt consuming is not to close yourself in your shell, but actively explore what are there any interesting. I become cold turkey to any other recommendation services since I have unleashed the power of Yt.
I apologize for what is doubtless egregious projection on my part.
I am like you in the sense that I seem "immune" to TikTok/Reels, especially relative to my wife, who can definitely get sucked into it for 30-60 minutes. However, I'm easily-snared by things like "the last year of drama in the NixOS community". I can easily spend an hour I don't have reading forum threads in which people are accusing moderators of abusing their position in a forum about a piece of technology I don't use.
So in some sense the tech industry didn't need to "innovate" in order to suck me in. I was getting sucked into reading about web forum drama 20 years ago.
I often spend way more time on those.
Each one 3-5 lines. Hundreds of comments in a near endless list.
I don’t think HN is that different compared to other social media
It’s no different than traditional social media, except in intensity. It’s less intense, because of its text-based format as opposed to video, the clickbait-resistant culture, and the fact that while it’s very large, it’s not infinite. You can consume the top page under half an hour and there are only so many stories posted here a day.
Depending on where you are in the AuDHD spectrum, you can be as addicted to HN as a teenager with 7hrs daily Instagram usage. pg acknowledges this.
Of course, long term I know time spent this way is mostly wasted for the value I get out of it.
People do project their general behaviour patterns on social media regardless of the form, though some forms are more malleable to that than others.
Well, in that case, I need some sources. For example, I'm not convinced that people project on social media to the extent that you're implying they do. It's a statement that needs support (which you didn't provided).
I am confident that you are able to find those sources, then we'll be able to talk about it on a common ground!
As for evidence for people actually miss old Twitter, sorry I can't prove to you I have friends who mention that multiple times a month. You can take it for what it is (someone sharing their experience) or you can assume that I'm making this up for the sake of a throwaway internet conversation. Your choice.
People do project their general behaviour patterns on social media regardless of the form
I need sources (not examples!) that demonstrate that people project their general behavioral patterns on social media.
I also need sources (not examples!) that demonstrate that this projection remains the same regardless of the form (video, text, etc).
Your line of reasoning implies that Twitter was one of the means for people to do that, and the reach lost by the dissolution of Twitter communities exemplifies this projection mechanism. It's a fair assumption, but not enough to prove that *general* behavior was present in such interations, nor that it works *regardless of form*. So, there's a lot to prove.
If I were to guess, I would say the case is much more specific, and the generalization does not hold water.
Good luck.
Most of the YouTube and short-form content doesn't inspire anything like that. The "job" is to sit and watch the content for 30 seconds and repeat. Almost every form of "engagement" is to manipulate the audience into "doing the algorithm".
I think they have differences that are significant.
I highly recommend the book Hooked by Nir Eyal[0]. It is the book that effortlessly detailed how to build short form video networks (as well as other addicting software over the last 10+ years). The people who built this stuff read it and the people who want to stop the addictions should read it.
I've been trying to correct the algo but giving a down thumb to videos I don't want to watch but its not learning.
Some of my relatives in the 90s, things weren't much better without smartphones. You had long distance calling and TV, or otherwise you were alone. One of my relatives attempted suicide when she was very young, you can guess why.
But yes, it obviously makes sense to use smartphones intelligently. Meta products and Tik Tok are poison for the mind. And unless you're at home it's a good idea to just shut the smartphone off.
The opposing viewpoint is that smartphones do fill a need of the modern world, and that is that most people have been separated from their families due to the logistics of finding paying work.
I agree. Tech-minimalists seem to forget that not everybody lives in some heavenly small mountain-side commune.
The article says a lot of things about being 'present', 'mindful', 'nurturing relationships' and 'enjoying the world'.
I don't want to be present. In fact, I want the complete opposite. I want to be literally anywhere else 99.99% of the time.
If I look at my phone and get to look at nice things, talk to incredible people and imagine lots of wish-fulfillment scenarios, I can pretend for a while that not everything is absolute dogshit 24/7.
What am I supposed to enjoy, exactly?
Its easier than ever before to move away regardless where you are, change jobs, reinvent yourself, to form relationships (I know this is much deeper topic but tools for meeting people are really ubiquous, and the rest is just a number game and some self-improvement effort), and at least do your damnest to (re)define rest of your life. Yesterday was the best time, today is second best.
What am I supposed to enjoy, exactly?
I've spent recently 2 weeks backpacking around some pretty remote parts of Indonesia. Cheap trip, most of the cost were tickets, the rest were just coral/wreck dives. The only westerners I've met (and there were relatively many) have all exactly same bug as me - its absolutely stunning and life-redefining experience. Its not easy or pleasant some times (since you go deep into 3rd world countries with only basic infrastructure, even phone signal can be rare, internet much more so), and properly amazing at others, and the only thing you think of when coming back is how and when to do it again, more, more remote.
One of many suggestions how to make one's life much better and give it some proper motivation. Plus as said it changes you for the better, this I can guarantee 100%. There is tons of beauty in the world, just ignore the noise, politics, and people and companies gaming you for your data making humanity worse off one step at a time.
Especially since I'm not a westerner. It's not great out here.
There is tons of beauty in the world, just ignore the noise, politics, and people and companies gaming you for your data making humanity worse off one step at a time.
It would be easier if said politics and people didn't want people like me or my (online) friends suffering and/or dead. I avoid going outside as much as possible.
I'm not doing too badly economically, honestly. I'm extremely lucky to be able to gild my cage. Doesn't really make me happy, but I guess this is as good as it gets.
I think what is meant is that if the phone is acting not only as an "escape" but also as a way of avoiding dealing with things or even changing them, then it is, in fact, harming you from the possibility of improving your condition.
Not for me to judge who is in that position or not, but I would definitely say many people use it as an avoidance rather than having to deal with hard stuff. Change is hard, always was, even before phones.
Playing the victim card is always easier: my life sucks, there's nothing I can do, at least my phone keeps me happier. In many cases, there is always something you can do if you are willing to put the effort. But then again, not for me to judge. Some people are in really tough places.
One of my relatives attempted suicide when she was very young, you can guess why.
This misses that even more young ladies are attempting, today, albeit for entirely different reasons. I'll let you guess why.
Write letters and send them by post.
Lots of memes/postcards. I also have a part-time secretary (only for scheduling/mailing).
If I need to "sign up" somewhere, I use a burner/temporary email.
Free-est man alive.
Would you consider handwriting a letter and then fax2email it also an option, if not why not? Writing a letter can be much more intentional, but the sending process could be automated.
I remember I bought a german book with bundled talks/essays at the Goetheanum bookshop last year about how to relate to the digital revolution. Distracted by the internet I haven't had time yet to read the book. "Das Ende des Menschen? Wege durch und aus dem Transhumanismus" (The End of Man? Ways Through and Out of Transhumanism), edited by Ariane Eichenberg and Christiane Haid.
There is also something sweet about having a built-in delay for the message to "gestate" — perhaps if politically-related, your point is even further reinforced as "prescient," as the pre-dated postmark attests (upon delayed arrival). Perhaps you're wrong and wasted a stamp.
----
Mostly I agree with (I believe) P.G.'s premise that email is nothing more than a to-do list that anybody can add on to. I do not wish to ever be immediately reachable, again, and this is an expensive freedom/lifestyle.
I am simply too angry to have access to a system [email] where I can immediately tell anybody in the world how I feel about something [and did for a quarter-century]. If something really bothers me, it has to be worth a postage stamp (I usually write postcards, but also have thousands of FOREVER Stamps™).
I find most of the debate on smartphone use tends to fall on the extreme. Why not find a happy middle ground and recognize that they do have valid uses?
Most people are simply too weak mentally to resist various self-forming addictions and don't care about these topics at all.
Even a family that lives close to each other is separated in space by different homes and will often find themselves alone. But their situation will be much better than someone with no family around. They have the option to see each other, many don't.
I think the more detailed point is that we're largely atomized these days into separate physical spaces where we're often alone, or confined to a small number of people. Smartphones and computers make it a hell of a lot easier to break through that problem.
Even OpenAI's latest Sora app leans into this format and the videos there are literally the poorest quality on the Internet. 99.999% of them are eight seconds of unintelligent, unintelligible, low grade digitally created excrement.
There should be a law against it.
Big Tech knows this. They have teams of people with doctorates making apps engaging.
Whether the artificial stimulus comes in the form of junk food, entertainment, social connection, sex, we've seen time and time again that trillion-dollar megacorps employing thousands of the greatest minds of our generation have been able to invent substitutes that are more compelling than evolution has prepared the human brain to be able to deal with.
It does seem like video shorts are especially easy to exploit.
It's amazing to me how many people can't seem to walk down the street these days without staring at their phones the entire time.
I think they're addictive, bad for your mental health and acuity, and bad for society. And it's amazing how much time I'll spend even just checking the two small hobby discords I'm in just cause I've been so tuned towards picking up the phone when bored.
Leaving it in the other room on a speaker is nice cause it at least forces me to get up, and since I keep it on the speaker I don't often sit with it anymore. Which means I do other stuff like read, and clean, and work on things, or just sit and stare at the wall and let my brain breathe.
I still use maps (without location though), check out which helicopters and ships I'm looking at, weather, email, search, and Spanish flashcards through Anki. Which I think are nice activities.
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1631165043 - This is 5000 common Spanish words. Be warned, the pictures appear to have been pulled by some sort of automated process and some are risque. That being said, I learn words and then see or hear them fairly quickly while watching baseball en español, o leyendo las noticias o los librose.
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/638411848 - Spanish conjugation. Super hard at first, especially since it starts with the most unique verbs. But patterns emerge, and incredibly useful.
Those two are the only... "formal" work if you can call it that that I'm doing. The rest is writing to friends and notes at work, watching baseball and tv (and with subtitles and audio where possible), reading the news sometimes (still difficult, but has added benefit that I read less news), setting interfaces to Spanish.
My Spanish is really coming along at this point, and it's very cool. Wishing you good luck in your endeavor!! The most important thing is to just stick with it.
- Completely hide the recommended tab
- Make every thumbnail grayscale (to mitigate eye-catching thumbnails)
- Make every video title lowercase (to mitigate eye-catching titles)
Here's my code, although I have to update it every once and a while when YouTube changes:
yt-thumbnail-view-model { filter: grayscale(); }
h3[title] { text-transform: lowercase; }
.ytd-watch-flexy #secondary { display: none !important; }
What do I mean about App Timeout?
I want to say "Once I reach 20min on this app, block me from using it for 2 hours". Then it resets after 2 hours from that point. Both of those times being configurable of course.
The problem with the built-in Android App Timers now is I end up setting it to something large, like 1 hour or more because I'm thinking about how much time I want for a full day, but then I just sit there in 1 sitting swiping for that whole amount of time. And this usually happens after midnight so I know that I'm going to be blocked for my next day until after midnight again and the cycle continues.
I'd rather something force me to use it in shorter bits of time. So at midnight I can allow myself to get into an Instagram hole for 10 or 20min, but at least I know when I wake up it's been reset. I think doing this will train me to use the app for shorter amounts of time in general (or at least I think so and I want to test that theory).
I don't even know if this is possible in Android. How can one app block another. Maybe by allowing it to overlay over other apps or something?
Another feature I really like that also might be unique to Samsung-flavored Android--it's been a decade since I've had a device running Vanilla android, lol--is the overall daily screentime tracker. It's purely observational, so there's no penalty for going over, but unlike the app time limits that you can snooze there isn't a way to subtract time that you actually spent, which helps keep me accountable. Mainly I like having a widget that tracks the day's stats on my home screen, because being able to go "oof, did I really spend 45 minutes on <app> today already?" is a strong motivator for me to shape up.
As a bonus, you can also _exclude_ certain apps from the time limit tracker, which I like because it nudges me towards more constructive habits. Stuff like my notes app and Waze don't count towards the timer, nor does my e-reader of choice, which means I'm more likely to read a few pages of a book if I have time to kill since it's "free" against my daily screen goal.
I stood up and heckled my clown state representatives, for almost an hour, providing audience-appreciated commentary to what I perceive as our failed political system (US bipartisan).
To their toothless grocery sales tax reduction legislation (which'll never pass), I suggested my fellow constituents just shop across the state line, in one of the many nearby grocery stores — just STOP giving our state this money, then maybe they'll consider legislative changes.
Perhaps this fell upon deaf ears, but I wasn't the only audience member frustrated with our legislators' back-patting/inaction. I will vote/shop with my money, elsewhere. I wrote my state officials a letter afterwards, offering common-sense suggestions — hoping this geriatric remembers my participation (he turns 80 soon... just retire already, Congressman!).
Maybe something like that could work. If you find there are notifications that are disturbing you, but they really could have waited until the evening, toss 'em in the batch bucket. Eventually you'll tune out all the low-importance stuff and get your life back. Or find some other cadence that works for you. It takes some effort to tune these systems, but I think it's worth it.
Now the browser doesn't work and I can't install new apps. I also turn on "Do Not Disturb" almost all the time, which allows through notifications from exactly 3 people.
And don't get me started on all the custom apps cluttering my phone that these schools and sports leagues get sold on for sharing flyers and other info (Parent Square, Peach Jar, Playmetrics, Mojo, etc.) I guess it's a feature that most of those apps are not well designed and they don't suck you into addictive engagement loops like the big social media platforms.
- having a "phone box", the small uncomfortable shoe bench now has a shelf above it for phones, phones shall only be used on that bench
- only my partner knows the "screen time" password on iOS
- putting away my laptop and using a desktop computer instead
My current problem is listening to podcasts, I don't have a convenient way to listen to them without my phone.
The big issue is that I'm not very good at moderating my intake. I'm a crack addict for information and one small dose will turn into a bender.
I've got a somewhat weekly 6 hour round-trip commute where it get a lot of use.
THE biggest impediment for me has been stuff like getting sick. When I am sick, I just cannot lie there and do nothing. And it is TOO difficult to do stuff like read books or go out and talk to people or whatnot, it's too much effort. I HAVE to get back on consumptive screen-time. And then it devolves into something uglier - an ugly spiral, of gluttony & consumption, and I keep at it even beyond getting better.
Then it takes days or weeks of laziness and excuses to get back on track. And not just sickness but anything of that level. Anything that just kinda derails my life for a bit. I really need to find a middle-ground solution for the worst-case scenarios. I'm still working on it. I think I should be able to figure it out. It took me a while to figure out my best-case system as well.
It's not perfect, as I still spend a lot of time on Reddit and HN on the tiny screen while commuting, but it's moved the needle for me.
I guess these phones are rebadged?
Having so much more time to do actually useful things means I am present when relaxing, and focused when working, and get a lot more out of both portions of my life.
Anyone telling you that you need a smartphone to survive in the modern world is an apologist gaslighting you. Use cash, and offline tablet or nothing at all, and be digitally invisible and 100% present in the real world.
"Use cash, and offline tablet or nothing at all,"
Why would I have to use cash if I gave up my smartphone?
Edit: mute button is essential and don't allow any notifications outside important messages/apps
The human race has survived for about 2 million years without a 24/7 tether. Our environment is the safest and most human-shaped it's ever been, you don't need to have constant anxiety about true emergency situations resolved by cell phone connections, those are unimaginably rare.
It's totally feasible to go without a cell phone once in a while, just try it! Check your emails once a day, 5 days a week. Set up an auto-responder saying you're unavailable and can check messages at [time]. Navigate with your memory and the many signs that are posted, or with a paper map for aid. Write down things you need to remember with a pen and a piece of paper. Leave the phone behind and just go for a walk in a park with nothing but your surroundings and your thoughts. The world will keep turning for 30 minutes regardless of whether you're keeping tabs on it through the phone.
If we assume people sleep roughly 8 hours per day
I'd strongly question that assumption. Based on what I've heard from friends (and also personal experience), I think there is quite a large number if people who spend too much time on the phone, but also still want to do activities/work on projects, etc - all in addition to work, family life and chores.
The result is that the time is taken from the activity that appears most "compressible" at first glance, which is sleep.
Now I just read a book for 30 minutes until I'm too tired and doze off.
Hard books are the real soma: I have all these books that I want to read because I want to understand and know what's in them, but there are so many charts, graphs, maps, equations and simply complex-ass thoughts that they're hell to get through during leisure time without waking up falling out of your chair.
That's perfect night table insomnia reading. Either they put you to sleep just by a couple glances at the page you left off at; or you in fact have real insomnia, and that's going to be your wings to get you through them. Added bonus: sometimes you fall asleep and have complex dreams, and understanding that argument ends up like when you're debugging in your sleep.
I've tested the unlimited claim, and they really do let you download terabytes. All my local LLMs are downloaded over mobile data.
So yes, in my experience it's inverted over here. Mobile bandwidth is the cheapest if you can get a good deal and you're in an uncongested area with a good signal. Unfortunately that's not a combination I've found to be reliable anywhere I go, especially over the last 6 months. But the price is good!
https://cabletvinfo.com/internet-services/cricket-wireless-p...
or 20GB for $35, with no talk or text.
https://www.usmobile.com/blog/explore-cricket-wireless-simpl...
edit: linking weird sites because I don't know how accessible US telecom site pricing is in Europe, but they are correct.
If "necessity" means work-related: On my work-issued iPhone, I call and (briefly) text with people, triage some e-mail, have a look at calendars, take some in-situ photo/video, refer to a few notes, and so on. I don't have the screen time feature turned on but I guess I'm also below 30 minutes on that phone on most days. The exception being traditional voice calls which occasionally can go on for (much) longer than those 30 minutes, depending on what's happening. However, most of my more regular, scheduled conversations happen in real-life or in Zoom, Webex or other such platforms and not on a mobile phone.
The only work-related thing that I can think of OTOH which really required me to use a mobile device is hardware that requires an app to work (which is fortunately still rare).
- I've lusted over the fantasy of having a pocket knowledge machine / tricorder-like thing since long before PDAs and later smartphones. Okay, still no full tricorder, but boy, are smartphones ever useful. I really like having a pocket GPS, music/audiobook player, translation device, library, basic sensor package, gaming machine, backup for my most important data, password/document manager and general purpose computing device in my pocket.
- I was a child before the web was a thing but I very much grew up on computers and the web and I have seen and/or experienced all sorts of addictive, gamified and otherwise nasty things those technologies brought with it (or enabled). I'm rather happy to have a bit of context from a time before those technologies and I'm also happy about having grown out of most of my computer-related bad habits and behaviours before the web and those technologies were what they are today.
- I made a decision to get off most social media with the exception of a few forum-like things at the point where I felt that it was no longer mostly about expanding real-world connections. Must have been around 10-12 years ago, I think.
- In my personal definition of "social media", I've included most messengers and certainly the way many people seem to use them. This abstinence can cause quite a bit of social friction and peer-pressure and I'm not entirely sure if I could (or would want to) "resist" had I not first grown up without any messenger and later with (occasionally excessive use of) IRC, ICQ and many that came after.
- If I feel the need to publish something, I'll do it via some long-term channel (blog, newspaper, journal, conference, ...).
- Even without being on social media, it's still relatively easy to keep up with current (app-/web-)culture enough to not get laughed out the room or viewed as a hopeless old fart by younger people (which is important to me because I work with them pretty much daily).
- Even without being on social media, it's still quite easy to keep up with the news and important developments in whatever field might interest you.
- Often, I read "my government / bank / other organization made me have an app / a smartphone". In those cases, I often ask myself it it's a matter of convenience or if those voices come from some context that really does not have any other options. Because I really hope there are no countries where you can't get/use any bank account without an app and I even more sincerely hope that most countries make it illegal to require mobile apps (or even internet access) for any important government service as the only option.
Media (not phone or computer) addiction is the socially acceptable addiction of our time, just like alcohol formerly was. Most of this consumption is completely pointless, depressive and degrades your mental ability to stave off boredom and be creative. So many current problems in the world are caused (alongside inequality and many other causes) with our society-wide acceptance of this media addiction.
Right now, my colleague opposite me is using their phone to dick around on Facebook. They will spend 1 hour to 1.5 hours on it at work today (equivalent to 12% of their salary), with it sat there vibrating on the table every 3 minutes (you need 25 minutes of uninterrupted concentration to get into a flow state). You can see the Pavlov dog mechanism kick in every time it vibrates. This colleague makes tons of mistakes, distracts me and others, and this is deemed acceptable because everybody is in the same position.
It is wild to me that media technology companies achieve the valuations that they do, and only makes sense in a world where a huge portion of the population are hopelessly addicted.
Phones and computers are not the issue. You can have a smartphone, never install social media on it, untick all the notifications, put it in monochrome mode, and lock it down completely. That's how my phone is, and I spend on average less than 10 minutes per day using it.
People need to change their approach to boredom. If you're waiting in a queue, walking somewhere or on public transport, you need to find a way to fill that boredom without using the easy option. That easy option hooks you in, and before you know it you spend 4 hours a day on a phone. Just daydream, think about a project or an idea in your head. It's good for your brain.
If you want to try my phone setup:
- Android phone
- Permanently in monochrome mode, black wallpaper, white icons, minimalistic launcher (app drawer only)
- Zero social media, games, media apps. For hardcore dopamine resistance, uninstall music and podcasts as well. Boredom can be a good thing, and you don't need to fill your day with constant dopamine hits
- Disable built-in versions (like YouTube) in settings. Turn off Google discovery if you use that app
- All notifications disabled except communication (phone, email, message)
- For communication, unsubscribe from any non-urgent emails as soon as you receive them
- Bedtime mode, starting and ending at least 1 hour either side of sleep. Don't use your phone in the first or last hour of the day at all (you won't be using it at this point)
With this setup you get the benefit of a smartphone (useful utilities like maps, translation, web searches, digital tickets), without any further reason to check it. I don't really believe in the idea of going for a dumb (feature) phone because you lose useful utilities.
If you try and persist with this sort of setup for a month, even if you begin giving in after this point, you'll remember how much better things were and that will always provide an easy way back into it should the habit lapse.
Computers are tools for us to do things our brains aren't capable of. They are not things to hijack our lives, otherwise we may as well be simulations.
Not sure what the economic impact would be if everybody left social media, video games, and YouTube en masse tomorrow, considering how much growth the US (and therefore world) economy has seen from a handful of companies that provide the digital drugs.
This did not seem to work for me. I would forget about it and after a while just left it on color.
Now I use a shortcut on the action button. By default my iPhone is black and white, pressing the action button gives me color for two minutes.
The crucial step is that after this time it is automatically switching back to black and white. Even when the phone is locked.
This now seems to actually help. And as a side effect I also enjoy looking at a few things in black and white. A new experience.
All these great ideas for how to prevent you from doing something, they all need to allow me to bypass it when I want to, but they also need to automatically switch back to the “locked” mode.
This needs to be seamless so that the “yes I am sure I want to read this” bypass does not become a new, meaningless habit.
What is also interesting is that apparently, for me, a hard lock-out, a hard disable, is not good enough. Instead, reducing the joy (black & white filter) seems to work much better and does not motivate me to work around the restriction.
I doubt I would be happy with a dumb phone either. So this is a good middle ground.
One other thing I’ve always hoped to see is a kind of scheduled check in with me, where I am asked / reminded to get out of my Netflix / Reddit / YouTube tunnel vision.
Hardware and software to do that is tricky. iOS locked down too much.
But there are today quite capable and cheap Esp32 based smart watches (~$25) and I am trying to figure out how to integrate one of these into my life purely for tunnelvision-interrupting “are you really sure you want to do this right now?” notifications.
I feel privileged to have had a childhood before smartphones. At least I can remember how we used to be.
All of these measures are not because of how it is today but because I am afraid of where we will be a few years from now. Endlessly engaging generated AI content.
Better try to build some boundaries while I still can.
It’s not that I hate how the author feels or what he thinks. I hate that he feels he has to think all of this and that the phone is that great an impediment. I hate that I feel like the same way as him and that he’s expressing it so clear. I’m projecting.
This is all so dumb. They’re just phones for crying out loud. We should all be ashamed of ourselves. I’ve been putting salt on top of boredom to make time taste better. What have I done.
I just wish I had an addon like this for, well, everything. The browser is such a great platform because you can have this much control over your experience--no such luck with mobile apps.
I'm an adult, I know how to circumvent these limits, and I will if motivation is low.
It's impossible to build systems that perfectly prevent you from doing this, but it is possible to build systems that can perfectly deter you from doing it. You could set up one - for example - that texts your spouse if you delete it. Or charges your bank account. Or whatever other doomsday device you want to rig up.
Time limits don't affect the underlying addiction. You don't quit smoking by only smoking certain hours of the day.
Yeah but if you could encode cigarettes to ween you off of them by force, that'd be a big help. Also cigarettes don't have any real utility, so cold turkey is a reasonable strategy. Unfortunately the social media platforms have real utility, so a guardrail strategy makes more sense.
The companies that build these apps have tens of thousands of really smart people (and billions of dollars) trying to get me hooked and keep me engaged. The only way to win this game isn't by trying to beat them (I certainly can't), but by not playing.
When it's all said and done, someone is going to build the right set of digital environment modification tooling that does beat them. It has to be possible, the internet is intrinsically customizable
Nowadays when waiting for something I might take my iPhone 15 Pro out of my pocket and unlock its boring-ass greyscale screen. There are no new notifications from any apps whatsoever, because I keep my phone on Do Not Disturb all the time.
I’ll first peek over the Mail app: no red notification badge. Still, I’ll sometimes compulsively open it and check my inbox. There is no new mail, there is almost never any new mail aside from Google sign-in notifications. (I unsubscribed from all marketing emails).
Then I might check WhatsApp. Nobody important texted me. If they did I’d receive a notification. I didn’t receive a notification in the past few hours. There are no infinite content feeds on my phone. Even my web browser only allows a specified set of websites.
Sometimes when waiting for something, and if I ran out of books I pre-downloaded for free from Internet Archive, I’ll open the Maps app and go all around Antarctica trying to find scientific bases. It can be kinda fun. Especially when you don’t have any social media or unrestricted internet on your phone.
I have ADHD.
Before implementing Screen Time restrictions on my phone, I was glued to the screen all day and night long. These restrictions were the difference between functioning and not.
For computer I'm almost 100% on there all the time whether at work or at home, I can't handle silence. The present thing is funny, when the internet goes out I'm in the present like oh man what do I do.
I think going out and being in nature is good for being present. Watching the ocean/large body of water, huge field, being in a forest, etc...
It is funny how your mind operates where you're always in some state, it's 9 AM I gotta be at work, it's this time I have to do this next... that's what I aim for is not huge wealth (although that'd be nice stealth anyway) but freedom with my own time. Right now from dumb choices I'm burdened with debt so my main reason to continue living is just working to pay bills. Not saying that in a bad way I just realized that, trying to get passion back in something. And my cat gotta care for him.
I removed every 'fun' app except for a few exceptions:
- ChatGPT, but mostly in voice mode, and with other people - as a party trick.
- Whisper Memos (https://whispermemos.com/), I record voice memos and they end up in my email, so I can continue with that idea when I'm on a computer (whether that is a prompt for AI, or a todo.)
- Bevel (https://www.bevel.health/), to track sleep factors, such as whether I wore a nasal strip
- Overcast (https://overcast.fm/), for playing podcasts.
- Liftosaur (http://liftosaur.com/), for tracking gym
- Basics like Banking, EV charging, Maps, Parking, Messages, Weather, Authenticator, Reminders, etc.
I removed App Store as well as Safari, so these apps is all I can do on my iPhone.
In the beginning, I set up a Screen Time code so I wouldn't be able to cheat. But in a few weeks I got used to it. So App Store and Safari are enabled again, but I never use them. (Maybe Safari is disabled. I have no idea to be honest.)
The biggest downside is I never know where my phone is. However, I'll gladly accept this downside.
If I am "being present" I will just stare at a ground. (Or read a book, but how is that more present?)
I'm good.
- A do not disturb mode that is noticeable: no wallpaper, no clock (black on black), no notifications, battery saving mode. If I'm around others, my phone is in that mode.
- No social media apps, and stay logged out of the mobile website. Don't remember the password.
- No email app. I thought it would be a problem, but I've been logged out of Gmail for over a month. I forget to check email. It's great!
- A wrist watch. Get the time, not the notifications.
- Something to keep busy, but only for medium periods. I like reading articles queued in Instapaper.
- Ad block rules and other delays for the things you really struggle to stop doing.
- Ad block rules to remove the distracting elements of websites you must use. Remove the feeds wherever you can, or redirect the feed page to the notifications page.
- Turn off ad blocking. I never use the internet on my iPad because the unfiltered internet is unbearable. I see a cookie banner I can't skip and it takes me right out of it.
- Keep your phone in your backpack or in a separate room.
- Paper books
No social media. No videos. No Music. I don't click on links in texts except the one that will show me where my taxi is.
At restaurants people around me sit together with food going cold on plates whilst staring at their phones. People walk around and into me whilst staring at their phones. I saw someone nearly step on a nesting Bush Stone Curlew, despite the protests from the bird's mate, because they were staring at their phone.
I do not believe we are cognitively capable of dealing with interruptions that demand our attention every 30 seconds. I know that despite a long list of life threatening illnesses I am the least anxious person I know, and I think that everyone else is stressing because they are staring at their phone.
* Anecdote, one person's experience. YMMV
To reverse the trend, I’m trying to read physical books or ebooks on a dedicated ereader as much as possible. No one seems to care, they are on their phones.
When I do use social media, I try to use a computer where I have much more control over what’s happening. So far I’ve read a ton more books this year.
Unlike a lot of people on this site I really enjoy the YouTube algorithm to discovery new topics/videos, but it can definitely become a rabbit hole.
Youtube was so much better when you didn't see the uploaders face and there wasn't incentive to pad video duration.
I'm an adult, I know how to circumvent these limits, and I will if motivation is low.
That point can be easily fixed as there are various online timelock services where you can put in your security code or password that will not reveal it to you within a certain timeframe[0][1].
[0] https://lockmeout.online/ [1]: https://password-locker.com/
Also, here’s a (mostly just for fun) project I did related to this: https://github.com/andrew-noble/doomscroll-detector
Also UBlock Origin for blocking specific elements on the screen is a lifesaver for reading articles or tutorials.